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Writing the European Constitution and involving the people in the process of Europe’s integration.
A wiki is kept here
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How Europe’s Values and Vision really look like from the bottom up.
This is a private initiative without any specific political or ideological background.
This is the first of two runs and intends to collect as much feedback as possible.
Have a say!
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Just to sum things up, what we’ve discussed:
(1) Funding – is a problem because of lack of money for the participatory E.U. initiative
but
a successful participatory initiative should be able to rise money from the people anyhow, as the Dean campaign did proove:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ausdauersport-21&camp=1638&creative=6742&path=ASIN%2F0060779594%2Fqid%3D1137135227%2Fsr%3D8-2%2Fref%3Dsr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl
→ we would need to be THAT good!
I don’t worry about the money first but how to aggregate sufficient attention from people. (Money can’t buy eyeballs) If we con “inspire” people the money will follow. (e.g. see google)
(2) Communication tools – the technology is ready (even the legal base is in place) – modern tools need to be applied to communication processes. That would enable to leverage from “the wisdom of crowds”. Some examples how crowds can be smart (or not so smart):
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ausdauersport-21&camp=1638&creative=6742&path=ASIN%2F0349117071%2Fqid%3D1131952759%2Fsr%3D8-1%2Fref%3Dsr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl
=> Modern communication technology enables real “two way” communication between literally millions of people in real time.
(just one example: IBM did this with 350.000 employees in an online-discussion which took place 72h around the globe – the results are used to restructure the company)
=> The challenge is to ask the “right” questions
(3) How to pull things together?
We might start with the people or with or representative, or both … we just need to get the engine going:
Let’s make a follow up confcall …
Enjoy, Klaus
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Hi Klaus,
Can we talk tomorrow? The links looks very interesting – easier to discuss them on the phone. What about 4PM CET tomorrow?
;-)
S*
Oprindelig meddelelse——-
Fra: Klaus [mailto:klaus@hammermueller.at]
Sendt: 3. april 2006 17:23
Til: Søren Winther Lundby
Cc: Emmanuel Charpentier; Andreas Heindl
Emne: Our discussion today – neweurope.org
Just to sum things up, what we’ve discussed:
(1) Funding – is a problem because of lack of money for the participatory E.U. initiative
but
a successful participatory initiative should be able to rise money from the people anyhow, as the Dean campaign did proove:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ausdauersport-21&camp=1638&creative=6742&path=ASIN%2F0060779594%2Fqid%3D1137135227%2Fsr%3D8-2%2Fref%3Dsr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl
→ we would need to be THAT good!
I don’t worry about the money first but how to aggregate sufficient attention from people. (Money can’t buy eyeballs) If we con “inspire” people the money will follow. (e.g. see google)
(2) Communication tools – the technology is ready (even the legal base is in place) – modern tools need to be applied to communication processes. That would enable to leverage from “the wisdom of crowds”. Some examples how crowds can be smart (or not so smart):
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ausdauersport-21&camp=1638&creative=6742&path=ASIN%2F0349117071%2Fqid%3D1131952759%2Fsr%3D8-1%2Fref%3Dsr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl
=> Modern communication technology enables real “two way” communication between literally millions of people in real time.
(just one example: IBM did this with 350.000 employees in an online-discussion which took place 72h around the globe – the results are used to restructure the company)
=> The challenge is to ask the “right” questions
(3) How to pull things together?
We might start with the people or with or representative, or both … we just need to get the engine going:
Let’s make a follow up confcall …
Enjoy, Klaus
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Hi!
Sorry that I write but now…
Too bad that I could not join your discussion yesterday – but at the moment I am busy to organise an event in Munich. For that reason, I am not able to join your discussion tomorrow in the afternoon. I have to pull the brake for a few days – sorry.
I just galloped through the “Charter 47”, visited your site and checked out the links. Sounds very interesting and promising!
My proposal would be to discuss next week on the phone. We have to learn to know each other finitely! Please keep me posted about your conversation!
Looking forward for the next phone discussion.
Best,
Andreas
—
Citizens of Europe
http://www.c-o-e.net
Andreas Heindl
Secretary General
andreas.heindl@c-o-e.net
Am 04.04.2006 15:49 Uhr schrieb “Søren Winther Lundby” unter <soren@nyteuropa.org>:
Hi Klaus,Can we talk tomorrow? The links looks very interesting – easier to discussthem on the phone. What about 4PM CET tomorrow?;-)S*——-Oprindelig meddelelse——-Fra: Klaus [mailto:klaus@hammermueller.at]Sendt: 3. april 2006 17:23Til: Søren Winther LundbyCc: Emmanuel Charpentier; Andreas HeindlEmne: Our discussion today – neweurope.orgJust to sum things up, what we’ve discussed:(1) Funding – is a problem because of lack of money for theparticipatory E.U. initiativebuta successful participatory initiative should be able to rise money fromthe people anyhow, as the Dean campaign did proove:http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ausdauersport-21&camp=1638&creative=6742&path=ASIN%2F0060779594%2Fqid%3D1137135227%2Fsr%3D8-2%2Fref%3Dsr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl→ we would need to be THAT good!I don’t worry about the money first but how to aggregate sufficientattention from people. (Money can’t buy eyeballs) If we con "inspire"people the money will follow. (e.g. see google)(2) Communication tools – the technology is ready (even the legal baseis in place) – modern tools need to be applied to communicationprocesses. That would enable to leverage from “the wisdom of crowds”.Some examples how crowds can be smart (or not so smart):http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ausdauersport-21&camp=1638&creative=6742&path=ASIN%2F0349117071%2Fqid%3D1131952759%2Fsr%3D8-1%2Fref%3Dsr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl=> Modern communication technology enables real “two way” communicationbetween literally millions of people in real time.(just one example: IBM did this with 350.000 employees in anonline-discussion which took place 72h around the globe – the resultsare used to restructure the company)=> The challenge is to ask the “right” questions(3) How to pull things together?* If people believe that their input “matters” they will flock to that site* If many people are on a site our representatives will pay attention* If representatives pay attention more people will participate on thatsite …We might start with the people or with or representative, or both … wejust need to get the engine going:* Pick the right topics which are on the people’s agenda* Get representatives committed to listen, care – and to fight for theresultsLet’s make a follow up confcall …Enjoy, Klaus
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That should be fine for me, but as late as possible, about 19h Paris time for example. Otherwise I work and am not able to use skype.
Of course there remains google talk (echarp@gmail.com), msn (echarp@hotmail.com) and irc.freenode.net #parlement onto which I’m available any time, well, any time during day time! :)
echarp
On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 03:49:12PM +0200, Søren Winther Lundby wrote:
Hi Klaus,Can we talk tomorrow? The links looks very interesting – easier to discuss them on the phone. What about 4PM CET tomorrow?;-)S*
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I’ve created a mailing list called our-constitution, and subscribed us 4 to it.
Its address is our-constitution@leparlement.org
What do you think? Are you willing to use it? It is publicly accessible on parlement here.
Of course I will unsubscribe you or remove any mail if you so wish! (I’ve already sent it to it some of our former mails…)
echarp
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Hi Manu, thanks – let’s give it a try -
http://leparlement.org/our-constitution
looks great. Much better than DebateEurope for those who wanna read!
Thanks,
Klaus
P.S. Feature Request: Could I have a button to choose the sorting – most recent posting on top? Anyhow – like it
P.P.S. And something to have different threads, … but to whome I am talking, sure you have a list on those features …
echarp schrieb:
I’ve created a mailing list called our-constitution, and subscribed us 4to it.Its address is our-constitution@leparlement.orgWhat do you think? Are you willing to use it? It is publicly accessibleon parlement here course I will unsubscribe you or remove any mail if you so wish!(I’ve already sent it to it some of our former mails…)echarp
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Thank you very much for your appreciation! :)
On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 10:45:59AM +0800, Klaus wrote:
P.S. Feature Request: Could I have a button to choose the sorting – most recent posting on top? Anyhow – like itIt’s one of those things I am hesitant about, because it relies on many many variables and is not strictly required to have a functioning and usable system.
Yet, the “titles” box on the right hand side currently contains the ten most recent direct sub threads in reverse chronological order. This will evolve, I’m thinking about a box that would list all new descendant elements (not just immediate children), so that you could easily follow and respond to evolving conversations.
Using RoR web2.0 capabilities, this list would be watched by your browser, and updated automatically! (every second or so, and without modifying anything else on the page)
Those conversations would also be duplicated in real time on and from an irc channel (or possibly skype chat or jabber…).
Would that be enough?
P.P.S. And something to have different threads, … but to whome I am talking, sure you have a list on those features …
Try to click on your name. The page is ugly, but it does show all your posts and the number of answers.
Obviously this can also evolve greatly. Suggestions welcome!
One of the nice looking features I’m currently thinking about, would be an avatar associated to you and your posts (because parlement does seem abrupt right now, it could use images and colors).
echarp
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Hi, my name is Klaus (http://klaus.hammermueller.at), and I am interested in how to apply open source processes outside the IT world too.
I contribute to some “grassroots” initiatives and have a new idea about how the http://www.yigg.de application could be used in a new way …
Emmanuel whom I have put on cc is also a Ruby enthusiast and builds like an “Internet parliament”: http://leparlement.org – well maybe it makes sense to pull efforts together …
My question would be what you all would think about an application of the yigg code for like
Any feedback is welcome, looking forward to hear from you!
LG, Klaus
P.S. thanks for doing the yigg stuff … much work!
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Hi Enrico,
thanks for the answer – as Emmanuel is a French guy, he might understand English better (even if this might be some stupid thing to say as well ;-)
Well, I didn’t expect that you are coding the features others request with top priority …
As Emmanuel is a Ruby programmer it may make some sense to look for shared components and functions in both projects – in the end it’s in both cases about voting and aggregating the wisdom of the many. Maybe I’ll try to learn some Ruby as well on my old days to contribute some bits (I am a very rusty J2EE and PHP programmer … those were the innocent days ;-) – well some testing I could provide at least.
Thus – yes we might be very eager to have a look at the CVS or subsilver as soon as you are ready !
Please keep us informed! Thanks,
Enjoy,
Klaus
P.S. absolute agree about the building of a community is crucial – and hard work. And the other cite too :)
Enrico Kern schrieb:
——-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE——-Hash: SHA1Hallo,erstmal sorry fuer die spaete Antwort. Ich denke mal ich kann durchaus Deutsch schreiben ;)Momentan besteht YiGG aus einer menge dreckig programmierter PHP Skripte was so “from the scratch” auch recht schnell geschrieben wurde. Den momentan benutzten Quellcode gebe ich aus humanen Gruenden und zum schutz des potentiellen Quellcodelesers nicht heraus ;)YiGG wird aber gerade neu gebaut in Rails und dann mit einer ersten Version unter der GPL veroeffentlicht (voraussichtlich am Linuxtag in Wiesbaden naechsten Monat, wo wir mit einem eigenen Stand vertretten sind).Die Version kann dann gerne mit den veraenderungen (evtl. als Modul) die fuer digg4accountability notwendig sind benutzt werden. Fuer uns steht aber primaer eine andere Nutzung der Software im Vordergrund welche vorallem die integration anderer Quellen einbindet.Momentan gibt es auch keinen oeffentlichen Entwicklungszweig und das wird vor Mai auch nicht passieren. Wenn wir diesen Status erreicht haben (und wir werden) wuerden wir sicher helfen die Software einzuschraenken/zu erweitern um die gewuenschte Funktionalitaet einzubauen die von Euch benoetigt wird.Momentan sind wir aber mit unseren laufenden Sachen schon ziemlich ausgereizt was unsere Kapazitaeten angeht darum schlage ich vor benachrichtige ich Euch wenn wir soweit sind , insofern dann noch Interesse bestehen sollte.Ein Hauptproblem ist auch nicht die Software an sich sondern man muss die Leute spaeter auch dazu bringen diese zu benutzen, vorallem baut das Prinzip auf Masse auf, was dann auch heist das es nicht mit einer hand Voll aktiver Benutzer funktionieren wird.GrussEnrico--————————>"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to buildbigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to producebigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." (Rich Cook)On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Klaus wrote:Hi, my name is Klaus (http://klaus.hammermueller.at), and I am interested in how to apply open source processes outside the IT world too.I contribute to some “grassroots” initiatives and have a new idea about how the http://www.yigg.de application could be used in a new way …Emmanuel whom I have put on cc is also a Ruby enthusiast and builds like an “Internet parliament”: http://leparlement.org – well maybe it makes sense to pull efforts together …My question would be what you all would think about an application of the yigg code for like* http://hammermueller.at/tiki-index.php?page=digg4accountabilityAny feedback is welcome, looking forward to hear from you!LG, KlausP.S. thanks for doing the yigg stuff … much work!——-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE——-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFENRJcbYuJ86uo9ycRAvsYAJ9HFtrY9HH2NmltikVetjql3Yw2UwCgrvsyr/kaFb9NXux0vnMBk9l9318==RhtC——-END PGP SIGNATURE——-
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have a click:
http://hammermueller.at/tiki-index.php?page=digg4accountability
cheers, Klaus
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have a click:
http://hammermueller.at/tiki-index.php?page=digg4accountability
cheers, Klaus
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Hi Søren,
impressive agenda! I’ve read it all and it is quiet ambitious! As this program is running, I am sure plenty of experiences have already collected.
One question I found in the press was if discussion is enough if the results tend to be without consequences afterwards:
Actually this is the question which drives me most: How can one aggregate results from discussions that have enough potential to “survive” and are not buried quickly in some papers? Well I have some ideas, but one more thought before:
If you look to large corporations – the executives there have kind of “absolute power” which is not democratically legitimated and they are also not very accountable for what they do, like Enron (or in Austria BAWAG more recently) demonstrates.
but
market forces keep the executives up at night and keep the system changing. Thus there is pressure – with the result that today’s corporation get rid of their hierarchies. There is little “top down” command and control in place any more. That’s simple because “floor level employees” talk to those people – clients, partners, colleagues directly “to get the job done”. Climbing up the ladder (like – my local boss, the country manager, the other country manager, etc …) is too slow to be successful.
The result: hierarchies do not matter any more. I think that’s part of the problem: The E.U. is simply not relevant for the citizens live, and they can’t influence it thus it is ignored and blamed for all the bad.
We need direct involvement, not all 5 years but on a daily basis.
From “the other side” – there is all those information, judgment,passion, … wisdom out there – and it is not used! To give you one example: HP made an “opinion market” about sales decisions where ordinary employees traded decision items at lunch. They actually outperformed the decision making executives on a 3:1 ratio.
The consequence: Only those organizations who get smarter survive in the market. And for the E.U. it’s the same on the global playground. People know or feel this.
… uups, didn’t want to get emotional … sorry
but this would be my feedback to your text: Will it help to “really” involve people in the end? If the level of commitment from the commission could be improved that something happens after the paper is delivered … that would make all the difference!
Looking forward to today afternoon – around 3 or 4 pm your time? I’ve also invited Manu – the French guy working on an Internet parliament …
Enjoy, Klaus
Søren Winther Lundby schrieb:
Hi Klaus,Could it be tomorrow? I have meetings in Copenhagen all day long. What is MEZ?Concerning skill and resources I somehow agree, on the other hand I am also sure that the EU will have to invest much more in these matters. Not at least to ensure the face-to-face element and that to ensure that this will not only address the “elite”. By the way: Could you take a look at the attached document regarding The European Foundation for Democracy? I have the commissioner behind me on this point and I have some of the high level contacts in www.efc.be This might be something for Citizens Europe as well.. I will elaborate on the text next week. John Palmer (now retired from the EPC) is also 100% involved. All the bestSoren——-Oprindelig meddelelse——-Fra: Klaus [mailto:klaus@hammermueller.at] Sendt: 30. marts 2006 04:25Til: Søren Winther LundbyEmne: Re: SV: nyteuropa.orgHi Søren,yes, I’ll be in HK fore some more month, being here one really feels where ones roots are … and can feel the dynamic from awakening Asia too. Thus plenty of motivation.The CMS I am using is a LAMP based called http://tikiwiki.org – because of all the nice features. There might be others with a more simple interface, well a mater of taste.Impressive work, your paper! I had a short look, but I’ll print it out to read it more carefully. For a chat you can find me at Skype or ICQ: hammkl – looking forward to it! I’ll be online today afternoon (4pm MEZ) or tomorrow too.I can provide a (much shorter) paper too about an aspect on how to involve more people:http://our-constitution.org/tiki-index.php?page=InspiringByParticipationI basically believe that there is all the skill and resources are out there to make a difference in our lives – we have just to figure out how to activate all that brain power.Looking forward to chat!Enjoy, KlausSøren Winther Lundby schrieb:Hi Klaus,This is very interesting indeed! I have to finish a few things today, and tomorrow I have meetings in Copenhagen all day long, but Friday I will get back to you. Maybe we should have a chat on the phone in the nearest future? Are you still living in HK? We are just about to streamline our English website – trying to make itlook just as professional as all the ones in which you are engaged. (Can I ask you: Which open source CMS would you recommend?) I have attached a paper that I wrote some months ago (prior to the no-votes) on ‘participatory democracy’. Lately I have somehow succeeded to become Special Advisor to Vice-president Margot Wallström.I also checked out http://www.c-o-e.net/index.php We are definitely thinking along the same lines. I was very cheered up reading this!;-) All the bestSoren——-Oprindelig meddelelse——-Fra: Klaus [mailto:klaus@hammermueller.at] Sendt: 29. marts 2006 11:55Til: Søren Winther LundbyCc: Andreas HeindlEmne: nyteuropa.orgHi Soren,I learnt about your initiative at your posting at* http://europa.eu.int/debateeuropeThere are others too who care about how to contribute to our future.There is a German guy who is writing wikipedia – like a new proposal:* http://wikitution.orgWell, I have also started a initiative about how to involve more people in this process:* http://our-constitution.orgRecently I got into contact with a group of people who are forming a club “Citizens of Europe” who do projects like this* http://www.c-o-e.netAnd then there is a French guy who are actually is building an Internet parliament (or voting platform)* http://leparlement.orgMaybe it make sense to pull our efforts together from your point of view?What do you think?Enjoy, Klaus
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